News Story - Idaho State Journal

Commentary by Tim Flagstad

The BYU men's basketball team was bigger, faster and stronger than its counterpart from the Gate City on Saturday. That much was obvious from the start.

At every opportunity, the Cougars did their best to intimidate Idaho State, whether it be a subtle shove, a hand in the air after a made basket or overall physical play. Rather than folding, though, the Bengals did the exact opposite. When BYU pushed, Idaho State pushed back -- literally -- and never gave in to the top dogs in the Intermountain Region from Provo, Utah.

Even though the Bengals lost 85-65 in front of an announced crowd of 4,364 on Saturday night at Holt Arena, Idaho State showed far more in the 20-point loss than it did in any of its previous three overtime losses.

"I don't like to get pushed around," said Idaho State junior guard Donnie Carson. "I don't care who you are, I'm not going to let anyone push me around."

Several times, BYU appeared poised to sprint out to an insurmountable lead, but each time, Idaho State refused to back down and kept the game within striking distance rather than silently taking a beating.

With a little under 11 minutes to go in the game, Carson grabbed a rebound that was bouncing in traffic. Idaho State trailed by 14 at the time, but rather than allow two BYU players to tie him up, Carson ripped the ball away and followed it up with a jump shot at the other end. A player on a weaker-willed team would've had no problem settling for the jump ball and taking his chances with the possession arrow.

Even though the Cougars constantly sent several players to the basket for offensive rebounds and had plenty more bigger bodies to do so, the Bengals allowed only eight offensive rebounds and lost the overall battle of the boards 33-31. That's an outstanding feat considering BYU misses at times appeared rarer than trips by Cougar teams to the Gate City, which hadn't happened in 31 years before Saturday.

A soft team or one that lacks heart wouldn't have been able to withstand such aggressive play by an opponent.

"They were really physical," said BYU's star, Lee Cummard. "We were crashing the boards, and they were getting after it, too. As you can see, they had 14 offensive rebounds, so they got after it hard."

Indeed, they did, which is why neither coach Joe O'Brien nor his players seemed too down after the loss.

They stuck right with a perennial NCAA tournament team and never cowered even when BYU did its best to play the bully.

No, the Bengals can't be completely satisfied with their effort. Their free-throw shooting -- they shot 53.8 percent from the line -- was abysmal and would be even for a junior high team. They still gave away too many possessions with turnovers and looked frantic at times on offense.

Still, the game was a definite step forward for Idaho State.

Even though it sports a terrible 1-4 record, this team should be ready when Big Sky play rolls around, which is the entire point of O'Brien's brutal scheduling.

"If we can play with these guys, I know we can play with everyone in our conference," Carson said. "You have to look long-term, not short-term."

With their effort Saturday night, the Bengals showed that fans should take a similar approach.

Tim Flagstad's column normally appears Mondays. With comments or story ideas, contact him at 239-3124 or by e-mail at tflagstad@journalnet.com.

This document was originally published online on Monday, December 01, 2008

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Reader Comments

The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the view of our paper.

IA Observer wrote on Nov 30, 2008 8:37 AM:

" What is with the ISU coach? It was hard to tell on TV but from what I could see, he is out of control. There must have been things going on that TV didn't see but he sure appeared to be going "psycho" most of the game? What is that about? "

darnreed wrote on Nov 30, 2008 10:47 AM:

" I am a cougar fan living in Idaho. Idaho State has a great team from what I saw. They will do well this season. With what they have been through the last 4 games, their metal is getting fine tuned. Good luck. Living as close as I do to ISU I will be watching your progress with great interest. "

fromPoky wrote on Nov 30, 2008 11:07 AM:

" IA Observer:

O'brien is nuts. The refs let him off in that one - should have been tossed or T'd up (which I think he was trying to do the whole game but the refs wouldn't let it happen. "

Captain obvious wrote on Nov 30, 2008 11:48 AM:

" You don't stick around with a team that you lose by 20. That's called getting blown out, especially at home. What a crappy article. "

CaliforniaYguy wrote on Nov 30, 2008 12:06 PM:

" I enjoyed the game and ISU played very well, but ISU's coach is a head-case. I hope he can get some professional help before he goes postal on someone. Good luck. "

ISU alum BYU grad wrote on Nov 30, 2008 12:07 PM:

" ISU's Coach acted like a Junior High delinquent picking a fight. I dare you toc ross this line. Grow up O'brien! You are supposed to be the adult not the juvenile. "

CougarBlue wrote on Nov 30, 2008 1:13 PM:

" Carson: "I don't care who you are, I'm not going to let anyone push me around."

Yeah, he'll push after the whistle. Look, the Tavernari lost his balance and Carson got shoved. He lost his composure - nothing to be bragging about.

I echo the other comments about your HC, he's in for an infarction soon if he doesn't reel it in.

Good game.

BYU 85
ISU 65

Go Cougs! "

RAM wrote on Nov 30, 2008 1:52 PM:

" The Idaho coach threatened to kick the BYU coaches A**. Nice coach and how exactly are you supposed to teach these boys to become men? "

steve wrote on Nov 30, 2008 1:55 PM:

" Amen to that....Carson, do your talking with your game next time.....I would have tossed you for your dead ball antics.

And did O'Brien really challenge Rose "to go outside"? like it appeared on the TV replay? Get real....Bobby Knight you ain't....maybe if you were at Duke or Zaga or someplace other than ISU, you could throw a tantrum and have someone care. "

Kurt wrote on Nov 30, 2008 4:59 PM:

" Hate to break it to you Tim, but when a player has the opportunity to tie up the ball on a hustle play, it's not considered a badge of courage, it's an expectation. If your column is at all a reflection of ISU's basketball mentality, they won't win any games, but will probably lead the country in moral victories.

Keep trying. "

disappointed wrote on Nov 30, 2008 5:26 PM:

" I'll be honest. I was disappointed with BYU's lack of class. They come in with a chip on their shoulder like they are something to reckon with.

OK, you beat a BIG SKY team. If I was a BYU fan I would be concerned. Last night revealed how weak you are on the inside and how short your bench really is. It may have been a blow out against ISU, but I saw a fourth- or fifth-place Mountain West team last night.

And OB was out of control? I was sitting courtside and saw Rose run after Donnie Carson. I heard Rose yell at Carson and told him he was dirty. OB was keeping a coach from going after his player. A coach should be tossed any time he goes on the court like that.

So, here's my synopsis for all you self-righteous, holier-than-thou, hypocritical BYU fans:

1. Your inside games sucks
2. Your bench sucks
3. You're a bunch of hotheads that will get beat in any emotional game.
4. Your football team was overrated (I just threw that in for good measure.) "

Realitycheck wrote on Nov 30, 2008 5:56 PM:

" Hey Dissapointed-

Ummm all those things you just said might actually be true. But guess what? Your team just got completely embarassed by that 4th or 5th place MWC team that has no post players or a bench. BYU didn't even play good and they made ISU look like a middle school team that gotntheir feelings hurt so whined like little girls. Your like the annoying, unimportant girl at board meetings that just discredits yourself the more you talk. Do yourself a favor and accept the fact that you and your pathetic kitties are LOSERS! "

Bengal Superfan wrote on Nov 30, 2008 7:04 PM:

" I'm gonna take my time and respond here:

Captain Obvious: It's called "LOYALTY." Sure getting blown out by 20 at home sucks. But you gotta stick with it. You're nothing but a coward and some fair-weather sissy if you don't.

To the BYU fans who feel they need to discipline us:

I'd rather have a coach who's willing to fight for us than some damn FACE-MAN COACH who goes on golf tournaments and is more concerned with celebrity than actually coaching.

OB makes sure our players graduate and go to class. There is no mention of any of our guys in the news except the game itself.

Your constant need to demonstrate your arrogant, high-handed, holier-than-thou is rather disturbing. In fact, rather than OB see a psychiatrist for just being a fighter, how about you guys see one for a superiority complex? "

Bengal Superfan wrote on Nov 30, 2008 7:08 PM:

" In fact, I like how we didn't take crap. ISU has done that for way too long. I like the attitude our players and coaches have. I guess BYU didn't take being stood up to very well.

There is only one way to respond to a team that insists on being physical: hit 'em right back! They can't take being stood up to. "

Robert wrote on Nov 30, 2008 9:02 PM:

" This all sounds like a bunch of 5th graders trying to be the most macho person on the play ground. Can to, can not, can to, can not, and so on.......

Anymore, fights seen to be what fans want, not the sportmanship or competition like a few decades past.

In this case most of the bloggers should have their keyboards taken away! "

Bengal Superfan wrote on Nov 30, 2008 9:26 PM:

" Robert-

If you think it was all about sportsmanship in decades past, you are deluding yourself.

You think the 1950's to the 1970's were a happy picnic? Back in those days, fights were commonplace, and boy oh boy, were they fights! This was back in a time when sports were much more localized and regionalized, so things in sports were much more personal than they are now. You think rivalries are heated today? Go back about 25-30 years, and it will astound you.

What happened to this era? The 1980's saw drastic changes to the college sporting world. It became less personal with the advent of mass marketing and mass media (read: corporate-sponsored bowl games and the rise of ESPN). "

gwen wrote on Nov 30, 2008 9:40 PM:

" I think fans from both sides are being ridiculous and wouldn't be bragging either way if I were on either team.

It was basketball, good entertainment, no one threw a punch (at least I think..I am not sure what Cummard was doing to Steign). Its called competition and in this case nothing was over the top. If you have ever played the game you know that people say things in the heat of the moment some worse than others. I don't think anyone led someone to the dark side by their behavior even though ppl would like to paint the picture that way.

I knew The "hypocrite" attack would come following this game and are inevitable when BYU plays and especially when they win.

Go Bengals! "

isufan wrote on Nov 30, 2008 10:25 PM:

" BYU's coach did not have any class. He, the school and the church should be ashamed of his behavior. The BYU players were full of cheap shots and dirty plays during and after the whistles. If O'Brien is nuts, then what is the BYU coach? He acted like a damn fool. Tavanari's shove after the whistle should have gotten him ejected, as well as half of the BYU bench when the went onto the court during the alteration. That is an automatic ejection. "

Observer wrote on Nov 30, 2008 10:46 PM:

" The BYU team acted just like the pompous little asses that one would expect with those initials. Last night - cheap shot artists. Today - they all probably went to their "meetings" with their little books, white shirts, ties, hair combed, teeth brushed, and fake smiles. Hypocrites.
And, can't these buffoons ever go for more than an hour at a time without saying the words "missionary" "ward" "bishop" and "church?" All their BYU announcers could tell you was if and where these zombies went on a mission. So sad. "

zebra wrote on Dec 1, 2008 12:07 AM:

" It was not a good game on either side. I am a bengal fan and also an lds member. It was a down right nasty game. I don't think we will be having a rematch anytime soon. Our coach did get out of control at times. The BYU players in my opinion were getting away with too many cheap shots and the bengal players had enough and came back at them and they didn't like it. Both sides had their faults. The #30 forgot his name Cummard? was acting like a little cry baby that couldn't have his sucker. Kind of a punk kid in my opinion. There were a few more cocky attitudes by some but not by all on the BYU side. I can see where most of them got there skills. Church ball at its finest. The refs were at fault too for letting this go on. I am not saying the bengal side did not have any faults becasue we did too. We will learn from this game. The BYU players were very impressive with the passing game and moving the ball. I hope both teams can learn from this and move on. "

craig wrote on Dec 1, 2008 12:56 AM:

" wow, talk about optimism and silver lining in this article. Way to be positive Mr. Flagstad... no reallly. "

Kevin Olson wrote on Dec 1, 2008 10:41 AM:

" It's called D1 basketball, man. There are no moral victories. "

alvinels wrote on Dec 1, 2008 11:39 AM:

" Why do we ever play a hick team like Idaho State on their home court? I didn't even know they had a basketball team "

larry wrote on Dec 1, 2008 12:09 PM:

" I am amazed at all the anti-mormom comments by the bloggers. If you said those things about any other religion, i.e., Catholics or Jews or Baptists, etc., you would be ripped apart by others.
ISU fans, get a life. Your team performed terribly and got beat down by a much better team. Get over it. And stop trying to feel better by taking cheap shots at the mormons. If it wasn't for the LDS population in southern Idaho there wouldn't even be places like Pocatello and Idaho Falls. They'd be truck stops on the way to nowhere. "

votb wrote on Dec 1, 2008 2:06 PM:

" OH MY GOSH! Let's all grow up and quit acting like babies. I called the game on the radio for ISU, and I'm a BYU grad to boot. Anybody here making this out to be more than a basketball game is a fool, whether you're a Mormon or a Mormon-hater. It was a game between two schools, and BYU had the better team. BYU is also a very physical team and it became obvious during the game that they can dish it out, but they can't take it. All ISU fans know coach OB can get carried away...which he did, and so did Coach Rose. Tavernari and Cummard are both hot dogs, and BYU fans would be livid if somebody else came into their place and acted the way they did. ISU fans that have a need to belittle BYU should be ashamed, and BYU fans that have a need to belittle ISU are idiots. Let me repeat again that it was a basketball game, and any fan feeling superior about themslves for whatever reason after this game needs to grow up. "

Miguelito wrote on Dec 1, 2008 3:37 PM:

" On TV it sure looked like the ISU coach was overdoing it. Let the players play. Obviously with no fouls called on the Tavernari/Carson situation both coaches needed to thank their lucky stars not get out on the court and into the ref's and opposing players grill's. Vandals are good and are going to win some games this year but not until they get into the Big Sky. BYU was clearly better but ISU is better than their record. "

Mike wrote on Dec 1, 2008 4:47 PM:

" Larry--

I need gas for my truck. There is gas in Poky and IF? It it less the $2.00 per gallon? "

Anti-Larry wrote on Dec 1, 2008 4:48 PM:

" Larry:

I don't know if making a case against people being anti-mormon works if you follow it up by ripping on their town and college. You must've missed Monson's talk in conference.

I don't think it's just because of any anti-mormon sentiment that BYU is looked at the way it is. It seems more like BYU THINKS the world is against them and react accordingly. They go everywhere as if it's them against everyone else and overcompensate by being arrogant and overly defensive (as is evidenced by this comment thread...) It's self-fulfilled victimization.

I have been to sporting events all over the country. BYU fans are great hometown fans. However, they are also more vicious than most fans other places. I think it takes everyone off-guard to see returned missionaries/athletes/church-going fans from a school supported by a church that promotes tolerance acting that way.

Dave Rose, Tavinarri, and Cummard exemplified this on Saturday. Now, those same "honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and lovely" fans are on another town's newspaper, bagging their town and their team. Sounds more like bullies than the light on the hill. "

Baffled wrote on Dec 1, 2008 6:06 PM:

" Larry,

Why would you need truck stops on the way to nowhere? "

gwen wrote on Dec 1, 2008 7:37 PM:

" i would have to agree with the announcer's idea - you are all blowing this way out of proportion.

both sides can keep blaming and making excuses and get nowhere in their lives - surely won't find happiness. "

Bengayl boi wrote on Dec 1, 2008 8:27 PM:

" I thought the ISU guys were cuter than the BYU guys. So at least in that department they are better. That's it though. Between the lines they got worked. "

BBFan wrote on Dec 1, 2008 9:51 PM:

" Does anyone know why the BYU basketball website doesn't list the players' birthdays, even in the personal data? It does tell where the player served a mission, however- and how many kids and grandkids he has. "

BlueCoug wrote on Dec 1, 2008 11:11 PM:

" Where does the ISU site list players' birthdays. TIA. "

so wrote on Dec 2, 2008 12:54 PM:

" I hate BYU but ISU doesn't even rank high enough for me to have an opinion....but after watching that game, maybe they need to look at D.II status..... "

BBFan wrote on Dec 2, 2008 8:05 PM:

" To Blue Coug: read the player bios on either website. At least ISU lists the birthdates. "

rockmsockm wrote on Dec 4, 2008 9:12 AM:

" Observer, I'm an ISU fan too but your comments crossed the line. These are young men and they make mistakes. Sometimes they let their competitiveness get the best of them and get angry and frustrated. So what? Is that a basis for calling these young men hypocrites? Throwing words like that around just makes you look silly. If you're a college kid then I kind of understand. However, the comment about bishops, missions, etc. shows that you have some bigotry issues that you need to get over. For the most part, both teams are full of young men that are trying to better themselves and guess what? We have LDS young men on our team as well. I have no particular love for the Cougars or most of their fans but I respect the fact that they are, for the most part, trying to live what they are taught and make themselves better people. "

Larrys DAD wrote on Dec 4, 2008 7:40 PM:

" " Larry,

I'm fortunately not from Poky but you're basically saying Provo or any other Mormon town is better or something?
If it wasn't for your cult a.k.a. LDS the world would be a better place. Please stop brainwashing people. "

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